Justin Woodward began out as one of many small cogs within the large wheel of the sport business. He studied sport artwork and design in faculty. Then he received a job at a triple-A sport firm as a 3D background artist.
However he determined he would somewhat be a sport designer as a substitute of being one amongst many 3D artists. He began his personal graphic design studio, doing duties like brand design that would join him with entrepreneurs. He discovered how you can fund tasks and create companies. He went on to create an indie sport studio. He stayed on that path.
He ultimately began The MIX, the Media Indie Trade, to assist sport startups get observed at large occasions just like the Sport Builders Convention. He picked up lots of experience alongside the best way and now critiques greater than 700 pitches a 12 months whereas looking for the most effective startups that deserve consideration. In our session at GamesBeat Summit 2025, we did a hearth chat about his experiences. And we delved into the hidden ways in which builders can discover cash, whether or not it’s by way of Kickstarter, platform corporations, publishers, VCs and different means.
Right here’s an edited transcript of our interview.
GamesBeat: Our session at the moment is “Sport Funding Diversification for Indies.” I’m glad to be right here with Justin Woodward, who has a protracted historical past within the sport business. I’ll have him undergo a few of it right here. Are you able to discuss to us about how you bought going within the indie area?
Justin Woodward: I’ve been within the sport business for about 15 years now. I went to varsity for sport artwork and design. Went to triple-A shortly after that as a 3D background artist. After that I actually didn’t–throughout that point I actually didn’t dig being a 3D artist. I needed to be a designer. That’s what I went to highschool for, and a producer. As I began to determine my very own path, I began a graphic design studio the place I used that to do graphic design, web sites and brand designs, for entrepreneurs, with the intention to learn to fund tasks, learn to create companies, that sort of factor. After which proper round that point, after I began the graphic design enterprise, I began a grasp’s program in sport manufacturing administration. I began an impartial sport studio.
He stayed on that path and received to satisfy lots of mentors within the sport business.
GamesBeat: When did you encounter that first must go and get one thing from someone?
Woodward: I used to be tremendous broke. I used to be sleeping on the ground throughout my grasp’s program. I used to be trying into what it takes to get angel funding. This was 2009, round that point. Kickstarter had simply began. We had been one of many first Kickstarters, and we failed, which was very fascinating. However each time there was a possibility, we used that pitch to push it additional. All the oldsters that took me beneath their wing, I used their mentorship to be taught extra.
On the time–I grew up in San Diego. There was Excessive Moon Studios. Rockstar San Diego. PlayStation, Sony San Diego. One in all my mentors was Clint Keith, who was form of the grandfather of agile scrum. He took me to management workshops, when you keep in mind–that they had this stuff referred to as management boards. He would take me and I’d work with people from EA, Ubisoft, all of those totally different triple-A corporations, instructing them agile scrum. I’d be taught that as I used to be instructing, after which he was introducing me to folks. I used to be a giant fan of Oddworld Inhabitants. I received to satisfy Lorne Lanning, which was tremendous loopy to me. In particular person. He was such a cool man. I received the boldness to really feel like I might do that.
GamesBeat: Who was the one that first gave you a break by way of funding cash?
Woodward: We had been pitching the identical sport. We tried Kickstarter. Then we moved on to Nexon. Nexon was making an attempt to get into indie stuff. Then this factor opened up referred to as the IGN Indie Open Home, across the finish of 2010 and into 2011. I didn’t have cash to go. I used to be in San Diego with my beat-up outdated Nissan Altima, sleeping on the ground. One in all my mentors, who I met–she was from Venezuela. I used to be modifying movies for her. She mentioned, “When you take this chance to go as much as San Francisco and get in, I’ll mortgage you $2,000 to cowl it.”
We ended up on one of many management discussion board journeys, which was fascinating. I used to be already in San Francisco. I linked with the oldsters at IGN and mentioned, “I’m on the town. Can I meet you in particular person and pitch you?” They beloved the thought. They mainly gave me every week. “It’s a must to decide to return up right here in every week.” I went to Alicia and went to Clint and mentioned, “What do you suppose I ought to do?” Clint mentioned, “It’s a must to take the bull by the balls and make this occur.” Alicia mentioned she’d give me the $2,000. We packed our stuff and drove as much as the bay. We didn’t know what would occur, something like that. I used to be capable of persuade IGN to let me write weblog items for my faculty for an extra $2,000 a month. That helped me pay for it.
We confirmed the pitch at GDC. We had a bunch of individuals come and take a look at the sport. Then Alicia grew to become the primary investor. She invested $40,000. Adam Boyes, earlier than he was at PlayStation, was taking me to Capcom and Konami and all these totally different locations to pitch. I began getting the boldness to pitch. The subsequent factor you realize, the following step was I received a cope with Grownup Swim Video games. That pushed it excessive. That’s after I actually understood how you can get my grounding in funding.
GamesBeat: What had been some observations concerning the indie ecosystem that you simply encountered over time? San Francisco in some methods grew to become a Mecca for indies, however dwelling bills received so excessive that indies had been priced out of town. They needed to go additional out into Oakland and different components of the bay. There’s all the time been this bigger sample that’s affected indies and decided whether or not or not they’re viable.
Woodward: It was very fascinating throughout that point. You’d see this whenever you had been within the enterprise lengthy sufficient, see the cycles of the place issues are going. On the time social gaming was the factor. Everybody was doing Fb video games.
GamesBeat: That was the precise cause GamesBeat and its first convention took off. Corporations like Zynga had come on the scene, and everybody who was competing with them. All these social gaming people had been there. I’d left my job considering I’d by no means cowl video games once more. I went to VentureBeat to cowl startups, and there have been no gaming startups on the time. However abruptly social gaming got here alongside.
Woodward: There was a bizarre transition within the time with the arrival of social gaming, and in addition indie growth. For the IGN Indie Open Home, for instance–GameSpy, which was a publication on the time, additionally did backend multiplayer work. They labored with Iron Galaxy and plenty of others. That was their Indie Open Home accelerator. They had been making an attempt to get info for indies about what’s subsequent. They felt that indies could be the following large factor, which they had been. Tremendous Meat Boy was blowing up. There have been all these big breakouts within the indie area, alongside know-how like Unity turning into well-liked. Unreal was working for indies. It created this landmark occasion.
San Francisco was positively a Mecca for that. When social gaming noticed lots of layoffs, because the business was shifting towards cell–in the event that they didn’t make that shift, there have been lots of wonderful, gifted builders who needed to start out their very own studios.
GamesBeat: Generally everybody questions whether or not that new pattern goes to take off or not. But when it impressed all these buyers to pour cash into the sport business, it turned out to be a very good factor. Get that cash, take that cash, and do what you possibly can with it. Social gaming was a method. Cell gaming was a method. In additional fashionable instances we’ve had blockchain gaming. All this stuff save lots of sport corporations from going beneath, even when typically they didn’t wish to do a blockchain sport or one thing like that. It’s fascinating that that pattern has all the time been there.
There’s all the time been this concern, too, that everybody has had across the “indie apocalypse.” Did you are feeling that? Did you ever imagine in that?
Woodward: I all the time thought it was BS. Everybody’s terrified of all these items, however it’s a must to know how you can–I hustle. It’s a must to know how you can transfer round. As you simply mentioned, each time there’s a wave, you’ll be able to experience that wave for funding. Across the time once we had been beginning, it was proper when the PS4 was getting its toes. They wanted content material. It was taking so lengthy for them to make first-party video games. The budgets had been ballooning, and the time it took. They jumped into indie. They began to spend money on indie. PlayStation was dropping checks for round $200,000.
Each wave has this. You had been speaking about blockchain, which was fascinating as nicely. That has additionally shifted now. Blockchain fell off, and funding goes again into conventional net 2.0. You simply need to know how you can experience these waves.
GamesBeat: We’ve got to dwell as much as the billing of our session right here. The place is the cash now? The place is the hidden cash?
Woodward: It’s a must to know the place to look. That’s fairly apparent. However I simply talked about blockchain. Plenty of people who had blockchain cash, they nonetheless have that cash, however they’re trying to make investments it in several methods. Plenty of publishers received purchased up by Embracer and Xbox and so forth. A few of these corporations received let go. Saber Interactive purchased themselves out. They’re now trying to spend money on smaller tasks, as a result of earlier than that implosion, their tasks had been round $15-30 million. Now they’ve let go of those big tasks. They’re prepared to spend money on video games which might be nearer to the $1-2 million vary. Clearly there needs to be due diligence for this, but when builders could make a sport for $250,000 to $500,000, that’s additionally a market the place they’re prepared to make a wager that’s not so big.
Corporations with IP have been prepared to make bets. We simply launched a sport with Nickelodeon, a Rugrats sport, in October. That was a smaller indie model of title with a giant identify. Shortly after they noticed what we did, Paramount began to fund extra impartial tasks. Plenty of this has been popping up. Platforms, totally different funds–
GamesBeat: Meta put some huge cash into VR video games.
Woodward: Precisely.
GamesBeat: How would you price a few of these alternative ways of getting cash? You talked about Kickstarter. There are platform corporations, publishers, VCs. The place do you go first?
Woodward: It depends upon the place you’re at together with your studio and your expertise, and in addition your relationships. Unbiased publishers, that looks like a very good wager, in addition to platforms. When you’ve got a very good marketing strategy and you are feeling such as you’re going to be making a VC 10X-plus, then it is smart to gravitate your sport and your pitch towards that–I’m going to say it’s a sport. Each time you talk with a funder, it’s a must to perceive the vernacular. How do you talk with them? They’re on the lookout for sure issues that others aren’t.
An impartial writer like Uncooked Fury or Devolver, they’re on the lookout for creativity and expertise. They’re on the lookout for your subsequent three video games. Whereas VCs they’re on the lookout for the cash. How is that this going to earn money? That additionally rides waves, like AI. VCs are on the lookout for AI. Beforehand it was blockchain. Each wave, they’re going to be on the lookout for sure issues to spend money on, as a result of they’re investing in a number of studios. That’s one other factor to think about. Are you making an attempt to fund your studio in the long run, or are you making an attempt to fund one venture? That’s additionally going to find out the place a developer needs to go.
GamesBeat: In what capability are you on the lookout for video games? What do you search for among the many indies?
Woodward: I sort of skipped previous this, however I run The MIX, the Media Indie Trade. As I began my studio in San Francisco, I spotted that there was a necessity for builders to get involved with publishers, buyers, and press. In 2012 I teamed up with some people and we ran this occasion out of the IGN workplaces. We had a tremendous group of individuals. We had Towerfall and Retro Metropolis Rampage, some large indies that confirmed up. It was packed. The subsequent 12 months I referred to as it The MIX. It was even larger. It was tremendous grassroots. There was a line wrapped across the IGN constructing till we couldn’t even slot in there. We needed to get different services. We began doing E3 and that sort of factor.
Now we do 4 or 5 exhibits a 12 months. We’ve got one arising in the course of the Summer time Sport Fest. We’ve got a web based occasion and an in-person occasion. Now that that is my enterprise, we’ve an obligation to our companions – one, the builders, two, the press, after which three, our sponsors – to have extraordinarily good content material. Any time we’ve an occasion, I look by way of, with my staff, round 700 video games. Throughout a 12 months I’ll in all probability look by way of 1,500 video games or extra. It’s fascinating to see the totally different traits occurring. After I’m speaking to builders, I’m saying, “It’s a must to do one thing extraordinarily totally different.” When you’re making an attempt to do one other roguelike Metroidvania, you’re misplaced within the shuffle irrespective of how good it appears.
GamesBeat: What sort of video games are getting traction?
Woodward: Extra emergent gameplay, the place it doesn’t take as lengthy to develop the sport, however each time you play it’s totally different. That’s the roguelike style, in a method, however what’s your twist on it? How are you constructing your group? That sort of factor.
GamesBeat: Serious about various sources, are there any we haven’t talked about but? Or is the cash actually not there proper now? I see some publishers coming again. Acclaim simply arrange store once more beneath Alex Joseph. A number of years in the past there have been one thing like 30 publishers that had gone out of enterprise. When a writer goes down they take so many builders down with them.
Woodward: I additionally helped to run the Humble Black Sport Developer Fund for 4 years, the place we funded builders’ prototypes. Humble Video games–Ziff-Davis didn’t wish to deal in that sort of enterprise anymore, so Humble Video games shut down. What occurs to all of the expertise there? Now there’s a holding firm caring for them. It’s very fascinating. The factor about it that’s cool, although–none of that’s cool so far as corporations tanking, however as an illustration, Versus Evil was purchased by TinyBuild. They purchased numerous corporations proper earlier than the crash. These gifted individuals who ran these studios are nonetheless on the market. Now non-public buyers wish to spend money on these folks. They’ve cash. However they’re privately on the lookout for funds. It’s a must to construct your community and perceive the place these people are at, what they’re on the lookout for, and what ‘s on the market.
GamesBeat: We’ve had actual successes. Some triple-A video games have failed, however they go away a gap available in the market. Indies have moved in to take their place within the final couple of years. Helldivers 2, Palworld, Balatro. We’ve seen a lot of video games with a single developer behind them, like Animal Properly. What do you suppose is occurring as you take a look at the patterns there?
Woodward: I positively suppose there’s a gap available in the market, particularly within the center, the double-An area. Instruments are permitting builders to make double-A experiences, giant experiences on decrease budgets. Additionally, for the reason that world is opening up so far as communication–it’s all the time been there, however now you can work with builders in Brazil, in Indonesia, within the Philippines, that sort of factor. You’ll be able to have a simpatico relationship the place it’s not simply transactional. That’s opened up the potential for making video games very lean and really rapidly. Plenty of impartial builders fail once they’re making an attempt to compete with market costs and that sort of factor, somewhat than negotiating how they’re doing enterprise with distributors and the oldsters they work with. Actually maintaining it lean to flip that for a win. The delayed gratification of being an entrepreneur is actual. You don’t wish to increase $2 million and pay your self $350,000. I’ve seen that sort of factor occur.
GamesBeat: I simply got here again from Gamescom Latam in Brazil. There have been 130,000 folks on the present. I met with a lot of startups there. Newzoo places them at about $7.7 billion in income out of the $180 billion or so for the entire sport business. It’s a smaller a part of the market, however it’s rising at 6% a 12 months. The U.S. is rising at solely .5% per 12 months or so. Wanting on the Convoy knowledge for the primary quarter, there have been zero offers between VCs and anybody in South America. Likewise there was nothing in Australia and nothing in Africa. The entire cash went into Asia, Europe, and america.
I see a disconnect right here. This is without doubt one of the fastest-growing areas on the planet for video games. It has a vibrant indie market. But no one is placing cash into it. The cash financing no matter is occurring in Latin America is all homegrown. That appears loopy.
Woodward: If anybody is investing, they need to spend money on these studios. We’re working with a studio proper now, one in every of our companions, they usually’re doing wonderful work in full manufacturing. At The MIX we work with builders all around the world – Europe, Latin America, Southeast Asia. We see so many nice video games now. The Latin American Sport Showcase, David Lucio is operating that. There are such nice video games arising there that are actually at The MIX or in Day of the Devs or any of those showcases, as a result of they’re high notch. That’s the place issues are going to go. If buyers are good, they’re going to start out trying there. I do know there are lots of taxes and rules and hoops it’s a must to soar by way of. It prices a bit extra when you’re working with people in, say, Brazil.
GamesBeat: If there are methods for underrepresented communities and sport builders from these communities to get funding–is there recommendation you’d have on that entrance?
Woodward: From The MIX, I additionally began a nonprofit referred to as Expertise Studios, which has a fund, the XP Fund. We ran an accelerator with Netflix Video games to assist black builders. The nonprofit can be doing enterprise as Black Voices in Gaming. We’ve got a group that works with tons {of professional} builders. Plenty of it’s simply entry. Entry to networks. Figuring out the place the funds are. Being ready to do these pitches. However the expertise is identical. Discovering the cash is identical. There could also be further funding choices, like by way of our program. Plenty of this has dried up as a result of political local weather.
Xbox has executed so much within the area. We work with them for his or her DAP program, the Developer Acceleration Program. They’ve been doing issues behind the scenes for years that folks didn’t find out about. These are the oldsters you wish to discuss to. Likewise PlayStation has had one thing behind the scenes. They’re not blasting it out to the world, however they’re funding tasks from underrepresented devs.
