The next is the transcript of an interview with College of Chicago professor Robert Pape that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Sept. 14, 2025.
MAJOR GARRETT: Welcome again. We will take a more in-depth take a look at the issue of political violence in America. And we’re joined now, I am glad to say, by College of Chicago Professor Robert Pape. He is the founding director of the Chicago Challenge on Safety and Threats. Professor, it is nice to have you ever with us. Thanks for becoming a member of us. What are the development traces, and what’s the key terminology you need my viewers to grasp?
PROFESSOR ROBERT PAPE: We are actually in a watershed second for what I name the period of violent populism in America. This period is outlined, firstly, by two components: Primary, a rising tide of political violence on each the fitting and the left. And simply assume, and I wish to return to 2002 simply consider the attack- the assassination try on Nancy Pelosi, Democratic Chief of the Home, missed her, virtually killed her husband. The try on Brett Kavanaugh, conservative Supreme Courtroom Justice. Two makes an attempt on Republican candidate Donald Trump, after which the- in Minnesota only a few months in the past, not simply makes an attempt, however precise assassinations of Democratic leaders. Josh Shapiro, Governor of Pennsylvania. And now, we see Charlie Kirk assassinated. And what we’re seeing is that this clear rising development in numbers of assaults, side-by-side with that, although, we’re additionally seeing a rising tide, a groundswell of assist for political violence on each the fitting and the left that corresponds with this rising development of political violence on each the fitting and the left. Our Middle on the College of Chicago Challenge on Safety and Threats, now we have been conducting extremely dependable nationwide surveys on political violence- the assist for political violence amongst Individuals for over 4 years. We began this in the summertime of 2021. Our most up-to-date survey in- survey in Might discovered greater ranges of assist for political violence on each the fitting and the left than now we have ever seen, and that is one of many explanation why I rang the alarm bell with that large op-ed within the New York Instances in June saying we’re on the cusp of main political violence, and I am sorry to say we’re now proper within the grip of violent populism.
MAJOR GARRETT: And in that survey knowledge, is it that individuals who reply to your survey say, to reconcile myself to the political final result I would like- I will likely be prepared to resort to violence? Is that the important thing connection level?
PAPE: The important thing connection is the actual political grievance. So we requested, simply provide you with an instance, 39% of Democrats say they agree that using drive is justified to take away Donald Trump from the presidency. After we go deeper to probe what do they imply by use of drive? 55% are speaking about assassinations. They’re speaking about deadly makes use of of drive. That is why we use that time period. On the fitting, we additionally requested that exact same survey. We discovered 24% of Republicans agree that Donald Trump is justified in utilizing the US navy to suppress democratic protesters. So these are very particular questions. We’ve a complete slew of those questions in order that we actually can converse with nice precision about what are the grievances that individuals wish to say use of drive is justified. We all know what the which means of that time period is, after which we will see Democrat-Republican within the cross-tabs.
MAJOR GARRETT: Does your analysis buttress the purpose that each Senator Lankford and Senator Coons made, which is the web is an accelerant and an amplifier?
PAPE: It is an accelerant, but it surely’s not the foundation trigger. So, finding out this downside now for 5 years, I discovered that simply as world wide, large social change, it drives political violence. We see this in different nations world wide, and- however the particulars of the change differ. We are actually shifting for the primary time in our nation’s 250-year historical past, from a white majority democracy, to a white minority democracy. In 1990, we had been 76% non-Hispanic white. Right this moment, we’re 57% non-Hispanic white. It is going to be one other 10 years, perhaps 15 if we deport a variety of these undocumented, unlawful immigrants, earlier than we make the transition to a really white-minority democracy. Effectively, this generational change has occurred. It began about 10 years in the past, with the true tipping level era and corresponds with the rise of Donald Trump, why his difficulty of immigration is meteoric, why it is morphed from immigration which means cease individuals crossing the border to now deporting mass numbers of individuals, as a result of there are individuals on the fitting who wish to cease or reverse this, and likewise the virulent response to Donald Trump on the left- on elements of the left, who wish to preserve this going. That is actually the taproot, and that is why we have to expect- this left to its personal units will worsen and be with us for 10 years.
MAJOR GARRETT: So, this can be a demographic story that’s making a political backlash that will get amplified and accelerated on-line. Do I’ve that proper?
PAPE: You have bought it precisely proper. And these are why it is not the web just isn’t necessary. It is a reinforcing issue. And there may be –
MAJOR GARRETT: In different phrases, it is too simplistic to say it is the web?
PAPE: Precisely. As a result of-that’s why- a number of years in the past, individuals challenged my findings, and stated, oh no, no, we’ll simply deplatform individuals. So the issue right here is simply the web, so we’ll deplatform X, Y, and Z. We deplatformed X, Y, and Z, and you recognize what? Did not miss a beat. And the reason being as a result of, sure, it’s an additional- it is like throwing gasoline on the fireplace, however the web just isn’t the fireplace itself. There’s one thing occurring, which is admittedly radicalizing our politics. And I am sorry to say, this can be a story that we have seen world wide, in different nations, different occasions. And so this is- that is the social change resulting in radicalized politics that modifications winners and losers in our society for actual, and that is resulting in political violence.
MAJOR GARRETT: Professor, it has at all times been a trademark of this nation, now we have form of thought of ourselves as having this experiment that has a lot of variations of opinion, spasms of violence, however in the long run, we reconcile and we transfer ahead. Are you any roughly optimistic about that and that underlying assumption in regards to the core capacity of America than you had been beforehand?
PAPE: The longer term is in our arms. This isn’t locked-in with future. That stated, if we do nothing, it will preserve getting worse. The primary factor now we have to do is we’d like our political leaders to step up. And we simply noticed an occasion of that, simply beforehand, the place now we have Senators from each side of the aisle making a joint video look. Effectively, that is actually quite- to sentence violence. That is necessary, as a result of the leaders can restrain their very own constituents. After they bad-mouth the opposite aspect’s constituents, our knowledge reveals that makes all the things worse. That is the worst of all attainable worlds, as a result of it produces defiance. We have to step that up. What would step that up? A summit between President Trump, Governor Newsom, and Governor Pritzker, a public session the place they, all collectively, condemn political violence.
MAJOR GARRETT: Professor Pape, I am very glad you are right here. Modeling habits issues in lots of contexts, in life, political, and in any other case. Thanks very a lot. We’ll be again in only a second.
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