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The next is the transcript of the interview with Financial institution of America Chairman and CEO Brian Moynihan that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Dec. 21, 2025. Editor’s observe: This interview was filmed on Dec. 17, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, thanks for making time.
BANK OF AMERICA CEO BRIAN MOYNIHAN: It is nice to be right here. Good to see you once more.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I need to discuss to you concerning the state of the economic system, as a result of our CBS polling is displaying that probably the most People requested this query say their vacation gadgets are arduous to afford.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah.
BRENNAN: They’re pulling again as a result of incomes aren’t maintaining with inflation. However it’s a really completely different story. Once you have a look at the higher revenue brackets, I do know you see knowledge of precise transactions. Are folks doing what they inform us they’re doing?
MOYNIHAN: So- so we not solely see it within the combination, we additionally see it in items. And so if you happen to look within the combination, the quantity spent by way of the Thanksgiving weekend, on you already know, Black Friday and Cyber Monday by way of all of the month of November and the primary a part of December, it’s- it is up four- 4 and 1 / 4, 4 and a half % versus final 12 months’s November. And so it is rising. After which if you happen to look by terciles, three buckets of revenue ranges, it is clear the folks within the backside revenue degree, at decrease revenue ranges are spending somewhat quicker progress price, however nonetheless rising and within the center and higher quicker. So, you already know, what they’re telling you is, what they really feel, what they’re truly seeing, is spending is de facto strong, fairly strong heading into the top of the 12 months, and it has been sort of going alongside like that every one of December. Now, wages have grown, however inflation bothers folks. Jobs are you already know, the unemployment price’s very low, but it surely’s been rising. So there’s a variety of dialogue in there. On the finish of day, persons are spending they’ve good credit score high quality. They’re employed, and wait- we will see wages rising in as folks’s paychecks are available at a 3% clip. So it is a- it is fairly strong proper now.
BRENNAN: Is that also, although stilted in direction of the higher revenue brackets? Is it that Okay formed economic system some folks discuss about–
MOYNIHAN Our workforce places the- appears at this. Sure, it the expansion price distinction is increased, however all of- all of the third, a 3rd, a 3rd, all three thirds are rising.
BRENNAN: And also you suppose that can proceed?
MOYNIHAN: That is been steady. And so that is the query. They develop at completely different charges, however they’re all rising, which all means they’re placing more cash within the economic system than they did this time final 12 months.
BRENNAN: Why do you suppose folks have sentiment that is low however spending that is increased?
MOYNIHAN: It is- you hear about it, you have talked about it. It is this query of affordability and costs and attempting to determine how that- as a result of we had a really, a really unusual course of from 20 by way of now, we had COVID lockdown, then we had all of the stimulus, and we had excessive inflation, after which we had wages caught as much as it. And if you happen to draw a line and say, This is wages and this is spending and this is worth progress, it’s- they keep in sync throughout an extended time frame, however they went at completely different instances, and they also noticed the inflation and 20 and 23 and 24 that that was on their minds, they usually need to see it subsist, and it will take a short while to subsist. However as you go into 26 having come by way of 25 the incremental hit of that will be decrease. And even when the Fed appears at they suppose inflation retains working its approach down. However it’s- it is what folks really feel, and you’ll’t low cost that. And it is also at sure job classes and stuff, there’s been extra dislocation, and that is as a result of a few of the authorities downsizing and a few of the different issues occurring. However, but it surely’s, it isn’t widespread at 4, you already know, 4.6% unemployment within the final quantity they publish, that is nonetheless in the- in our enterprise careers, is definitely a really low unemployment price, frankly,
BRENNAN: And what do you see then as the most important threat to the economic system?
MOYNIHAN Effectively, if you look out forward, it is, it is it is the query wars is one other factor that might actually shake up the markets. However the actual query is- is- will the patron hold spending within the US? We now have the US economic system rising about 2.4% subsequent 12 months. We now have in- however that is dependent upon a client that stays engaged. If the patron turns into much less engaged as we transfer into 20- from 25 into 26 and slows down their spending. That is going to decelerate the economic system. In order that’s a threat. You simply do not see it wherever now. The second threat is wars and different issues that might go on that might create shocks to the market. And you already know, then there’s the same old issues, cyber occasions and issues like that. However the actual threat is, will the People, if the businesses of America make use of folks and pay them somewhat bit extra, they may spend an economic system within the US shall be high-quality, after which you could have these investments within the stimulus from the uh, the tax act, you could have the stimulus from a few of the investments coming in which might be hold kicking in. And that is why our workforce went from one and a half %, in all probability 4 months in the past, to 2 and a half %, 2.4% for 26 now, yeah.
BRENNAN: Okay, so up to now 12 months, commerce and tariffs, there have been a variety of shocks to the system. It was a giant concern, however Financial institution of America now tasks President Trump’s technique is one in every of de escalation, not escalation. Does that imply you see this commerce warfare with China cooling off?
MOYNIHAN: Effectively, I feel- if you happen to return to the place we have been in April, there was a variety of lack of expertise about the place this might find yourself, and that affected small businesses–
BRENNAN: There was shock–
MOYNIHAN: –and medium dimension businesses–
BRENNAN: There was shock.
MOYNIHAN: They have been shocked.
BRENNAN: There was shock on liberation day.
MOYNIHAN: The sheer dimension, the quantity, the {dollars}, throughout the board, et cetera. What you say now, as instances moved on, it is form of a 15% on one aspect, after which a better quantity primarily based on individuals who will not commit to buy from the US, or will not decide to decreasing their non tariff boundaries and issues like that. And so the query, after I discuss to international governments they usually ask you the query about what’s this all mean–or international CEOs–you say, look, you bought a alternative. You might be right here or be right here. You simply should make the selection. You are going to be- drive extra in direction of America, and you’ll come down to fifteen% to go from a ten% throughout the board, to fifteen% for the broad base of nations, not a big impact. And that is the place our workforce says it is beginning to- it is beginning to de escalate, and that you simply’re beginning to see the decision of the discussions into 15% right here 17 completely different numbers. Once you put China, China’s a special query, as a result of the nationwide safety pursuits, the uncommon earth minerals, the magnets, batteries, simply AI, all that stuff. It is a very completely different case. And I feel additionally between Mexico and China, the USMCA, which needs to be redone, can be a special case. However broadly on this planet, you possibly can see form of the top level right here and now they’ve simply obtained to (INAUDIBLE)- it is set to work by way of the system.
BRENNAN: How a lot of a toll has that taken on small companies? I perceive B of A is the most important small enterprise lender.
MOYNIHAN: So we are the largest small enterprise lender. If we have been sitting right here within the second quarter of this 12 months, it was a giant toll. They have been very- as a result of charges have gone up, and that prices them more cash as a result of they borrow on revolving traces of credit score. In different phrases, they borrow a floating price, after which the tariffs got here in and brought on them I am undecided I can get the products at what worth and the way can I commit? However as you went by way of the 12 months, charges got here down somewhat bit, so that they’re extra their difficulty proper now could be, can I get the labor I must do, to bid the contracts, to do the work I am doing? As a result of the immigration insurance policies have not settled in but, and that is inflicting folks concern. It is not that they agree with them or are disagreeing. They simply must have the reply, and that is what they’re in search of. So if you happen to suppose throughout 4 coverage regimes, tax-trade-tariff, immigration, after which in the end, deregulation. You’ve got seen a decision of a variety of them, however I feel the subsequent one for small enterprise, what they inform us is labor availability. How they get there may be, I want folks to do that work, and I should be reliable. They’re right here. So give me a algorithm and I am going to go play with them. However I should be clarified what the principles are.
BRENNAN: The labor shortage difficulty, folks simply cannot discover folks–
MOYNIHAN: The- dependability and people who find themselves in all probability not something to do with what the insurance policies are about feel- really feel in a different way, and that is if they do not really feel they will go to work, if they do not really feel they will do issues that that simply has to resolve. And small companies are typically most impacted as a result of they do not have our fantastic analysis workforce to determine all of it out and discuss and discuss to the massive shoppers who produce other groups to do it, and that is trickier. So I feel, and by the best way, the administration understands that they are engaged on it, they’re attempting to determine methods to get that half put collectively so it is clear what the insurance policies shall be and will not be, in order that, or aren’t, or, extra importantly, aren’t, actually what the folks that the unwell settled down, however that that difficulty of labor was a 23 difficulty after the nice resignation disappeared from small, medium sized companies got here again in actually due to the place, the place we’re from this summer time on.
BRENNAN: One of many different massive elements, it appears within the jobs market, is that this query of synthetic intelligence. How a lot is B of A counting on AI to do issues like predict mortgage defaults or determine dangers?
MOYNIHAN: Effectively, so I feel the best way that the patron would really feel AI at Financial institution of America is Erica. So if you happen to go on our cell app- you there is a bot there. It is an agent. It has been there for a few years. It does 2 million buyer interfaces a day. So it isn’t small. 20 million clients actively use it. It could reply 700 questions. In order that’s actual and been occurring. And in order that’s the best way a buyer would really feel it. If you happen to’re a company buyer, you’d really feel with Erica’s embed in our money pro- so your portal you go to as an organization to make funds or FX transactions, and also you need to ask questions, Erica is there. In order that’s- that you simply’re asking about one thing completely different. We now have used fashions for years about predicting defaults. So we do stress testing. These are all fashions to foretell the end result. We now have loss given defaults, default predictions. That is all there. Can these assist us make us extra knowledgeable? Sure, can they assist various kinds of staff function quicker? Completely. So we’re deploying throughout all our teammates AI, have entry to AI instruments. The- there are specialised AI instruments in sure areas, however we expect the very best greatest use close to time period is both discrete course of software or in serving to us construct clever to excessive ranges. However to interface to a buyer, you must have your knowledge proper. It’s important to have the controls proper, as a result of you possibly can’t give the client the fallacious reply, whether or not it is, I’ll approve your mortgage or not, and that is why this shall be a little- take somewhat extra care to implement in buyer dealing with enterprise with belief, which is what monetary companies is.
BRENNAN: Effectively, I ask it as a result of there’s that query of what number of human jobs get changed, proper? And if you have a look at that latest Enterprise Roundtable Survey of CEOs, they predict that whereas there may be spending on expertise and AI, they don’t seem to be hiring going up. They see it truly decreasing.
MOYNIHAN: So, so there is a couple issues that’s what’s on folks’s minds, and that is after we discuss to our teammates. We’re saying, Hey, we’ll carry AI and make it extra environment friendly, after which we obtained to supply extra exercise. And you do not have to fret. If you happen to seize AI and use it in your each day work, that is an excellent factor. And so it isn’t a menace to their jobs. However alternatively, I feel folks are actually assuming they will get advantages, and we’ll see in the event that they get these advantages. However you already know, if you happen to suppose from 1969 to 2019, it was 50 years, a variety of expertise got here in America employs twice as many individuals in 2019 as we did in 1969. So will this wind up? I do not know, and no one actually is aware of for certain, as a result of we have not ever had it. However alternatively, there is a functionality in our firm. The industrial bankers are calling on industrial clients. In the event that they get 10% extra environment friendly, we might not add so much to develop, however doesn’t suggest we’re gonna take away and get the efficiency- we need to develop. We need to drive extra progress. So the AI shall be spent- the efficiencies from AI shall be spent to continue to grow the corporate, I feel.
BRENNAN: So, it is an issue for the brand new faculty grad, but it surely’s not essentially a layoff that you simply’re making, basically.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, effectively, we simply employed 2000 plus new faculty grads in July, so it’s- we did not change the dimensions of class- my recommendation to these children, if you happen to ask them in the event that they’re nervous about, they are saying they’re nervous about- these are children that we rent, 200,000 purposes, we rent 2000 folks. They got here into our firm. If you happen to ask them, in the event that they’re scared, they are saying they’re. And I perceive that. However I- says, harness it, and also you should not. It will be your world forward of you.
BRENNAN: Let me ask you concerning the mortgage enterprise. You’ve got obtained a giant one. The Fed says exercise within the housing sector is weak. What do you see is behind that hesitation?
MOYNIHAN: There are two components to it. One is the speed construction is increased, so it is simply slowed down the exercise. So if persons are going to promote a home to maneuver as much as an even bigger home or one thing, the price of debt goes to go up. In order that’s slowing down that exercise. The second is constructing. And there is housing quantity shortages everywhere in the nation. Some single- you possibly can have single household, multi small multi flooring items, issues like that. Or much more, greater multi household, main cities, however there is a common housing scarcity, as a result of for therefore a few years it has been arduous to get housing permitted, and so the recommendation I give to anyone is you are in all probability not going to see the ten 12 months charges go down. Our teammates suppose the Fed funds price will get the low of three and however the tenure price stays between 4 and 4 and a half, which suggests the mortgage price will not be so much completely different than this at present, however if you happen to enhance provide, you may hold costs flat, and wages will develop by way of it. And also you’re beginning to see costs have flattened out in lots of locations. So you bought to construct provide, and you bought to get allowing accomplished, and you bought to try this might be the answer. Transferring mortgage charges 50 foundation factors won’t be an enormous change. When you could have a bunch of individuals 3% mortgage charges, that is not going to be modified. And by the best way, for the American economic system, we don’t need to have an economic system that has to have that low price construction once more, as a result of meaning we’re not rising, we’re not profitable, and we’re in all probability offsetting a recession. So we should not be cheering for 3% mortgage charges. It was an anomaly that occurred, and now we obtained to get again to regular.
BRENNAN: Effectively, you do hear the administration discuss charges coming down is an effective factor? You are simply saying it isn’t a easy, fast repair.
MOYNIHAN: Effectively, for the housing market, as a result of there’s 60 million- there’s 130 odd million households in America, half of them do not have a mortgage. That is this entire lock in query shouldn’t be even a related query. They lease, and so you bought to bring- rental affordability is a query. Or they personal outright, and that is a special query. They inherit a home, you already know, third era, or one thing like that. So it is a very complicated factor, however simplistic- simplistically, if mortgage charges come down, folks pays extra. The truth is, if costs come down, folks have extra affordability on that aspect. So I feel it really works itself by way of. However we had a really completely different price surroundings for lots of years, and that’s- that is arduous for folks to consider, as a result of folks beneath the age of 40, 2,3, 4, no, weren’t out working in an surroundings the place we had a 3% Fed funds price, which is extra the norm than not.
BRENNAN: So let me ask you about Fannie and Freddie. Taxpayers took a stake in the course of the monetary disaster in these mortgage lenders. The Treasury Secretary mentioned that they’re anticipated to return to the general public market within the subsequent 12 months, with the federal government promoting a portion of that stake. Does Financial institution of America have a job in that transaction? However- however for shoppers, is that truly going to push up the price of proudly owning a house?
MOYNIHAN: I do not discuss consumer relationships, however look, it will not in the event that they hold the assure. And- and the administration is aware of that, Secretary Bessent is aware of it that assure helps hold that mortgage price down, but in addition supplies a 30 12 months mortgage. As a result of now, if you make a mortgage mortgage with no authorities assure for a borrower who could also be on the qualification ranges, there are extra advantageous to borrow. You make a call for the subsequent 30 years that the borrower goes to be okay, or a variety of years. In order that assure is important to U.S. getting fastened price mortgages and having a variety of mortgage availability, after which they’ve run the issues fairly accountable since monetary disaster. Down funds have stayed substantial. So the credit score high quality of present portfolios is fairly good. They usually cannot lose that, as a result of that was the explanation. One of many the reason why we had the monetary disaster was the low down funds and plenty of mortgage loans with zero fairness in them. And as quickly as costs on homes got here down, the entire thing exploded, and all America was affected. So I feel they’re very aware all that, and I feel- however they’re important of the U.S. housing system. They at all times have been. They’re an excellent firm. They are a iconic firm for the U.S., frankly, now to place them collectively and are operating effectively.
BRENNAN: So the president has introduced that he desires all these sweeping modifications to the Federal Reserve. Chair Powell is ready to retire from the job in Might. For somebody at house, how a lot does that job matter to the patron. How do you clarify that?
MOYNIHAN: Effectively, it is one of many fascinating issues. So the President’s going to nominate a brand new chair of the Federal Reserve. Presidents throughout- for the reason that Federal Reserve, 100 plus years in the past, was based, have accomplished that, it isn’t new. He is obtained nice candidates. He’ll appoint anyone, and we’ll assist that candidate get the knowledge to achieve success, and so we’ll see what he does. However that is his prerogative. You recognize, that is he ought to do it. There’s- my thoughts, there’s an excessive amount of fascination with the Fed. We’re not- we’re a country- we’re a rustic that is pushed by the non-public sector, by what folks do, and within the companies and the businesses, small firms and enormous firms, medium sized firms, and entrepreneurs and medical doctors and lawyer- all these folks drive our economic system. The concept we’re like hanging on the thread by the Fed shifting charges 25 foundation factors, it appears to me we have gotten out of whack. And so we obtained to get- for the reason that monetary disaster, the Fed had a giant position in stabilizing the economic system. That is what they’re purported to do. That went away variety of years in the past. It got here again somewhat bit in COVID. They are a lender of final resort. They’re there to stabilize markets and price- however different web you should not know they exist fairly frankly–
BRENNAN: –So you do not fear about all this, you already know, handwringing of political interference with the Fed, as soon as that new place is–
MOYNIHAN: –The market is a- will punish folks if we do not have an unbiased Fed. And everyone is aware of that.
BRENNAN: Let me ask you about Trump accounts. They’re attempting to construct generational wealth. The administration says by having these rich donors, state governments, employers put cash in these tax benefit accounts for teenagers as an addition to the federal authorities placing some cash into a few of them, are you going to have a job in that program? And what do you suppose extra broadly about increasing the variety of folks placing cash within the inventory market, in these index funds.
MOYNIHAN: So I feel primary, if- at our firm beginning 2017 we- after the tax act from that 12 months, a variety of firms gave their staff $1,000 bonus. We began doing one thing else the subsequent 12 months, which we stored going and I’ve gone since. So our 200,000 plus staff yearly get an award of inventory throughout the entire board, and that is constructed as much as be s–
BRENNAN: –Many companies try this, restricted inventory.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, but it surely’s gone on for now. A variety of them did it as soon as, did not do it, however only a few have accomplished it that a lot. And that is like $6 billion of inventory have gone into these staff. And so I consider in inventory possession by everyone. I consider in holding that inventory and appreciating. And so we consider in that, we’ve got a 401k, that individuals can make investments, we’ve got 7% match and all that stuff. These accounts, I feel, are additionally good. The query is, you already know, the dad and mom should make the contributions, and the federal government will put some cash in, however the broader merchandise out there for fogeys, it’s going to be good to avoid wasting. However I feel we shouldn’t- we must always do that, however we even have to recollect monetary training. As a result of if you may get an training typically, in abilities coaching, as a result of if anyone might earn $10,000 extra a 12 months than they’d in any other case earn, or they will steadiness their finances and be money circulation optimistic to $10,000. That goes on for his or her, you already know, from their first job, 21,18, right through 65 that’s some huge cash. The place this for 18 years, shall be some huge cash, but it surely’ll be- it’s going to cease the place that can go on eternally. So we’d like such a work. And I expose the fairness markets underinvesting in America and all these issues, very low price the place the index funds doesn- it had foundation factors the place they have been saying that is all the appropriate approach to do it. By the best way, it was again to privatization, Social Safety in these days and that stuff.
BRENNAN: Is that this principally a approach to try this? I imply, each child all of the sudden has a inventory market funding.
MOYNIHAN: It will- I imply, we’ll should see. You and I will not be round 50 years, 60 years from now, possibly you’ll be, I will not be round 60 years from now to consider it. However it- you know- it’s going to, it’s going to try this. However fairness funding by folks holding that and having have to carry it to allow them to’t churn it and promote it. And that is, that is a very good factor. So I feel it is an excellent product. I feel it is fantastic that persons are stepping up and contributing to it. All of us have to consider an employer, as a result of we’ve got that inventory program, which is a number of thousand {dollars} to staff. And, you already know, we’ve got our 401k match. And if we do that, how does that work? And stuff like that. However- and if you happen to do it for teenagers, what do you do for the remainder of folks? You will have this query that not everyone in our firm has children. And so if I put the match in for- if I put the cash for folks with children, what I do with folks with out children? So there’s somewhat extra complicated, but it surely’s a very good factor, and I feel we’ll determine methods to take part and make it occur.
BRENNAN: So again in August, after we spoke, you talked about these allegations of banks taking part in politics and discriminating in opposition to conservatives. You pushed again fairly arduous in that second. However earlier this month, the Trump administration launched preliminary findings about banks, together with Financial institution of America. It is a six web page report. There’s reference to your environmental and sustainability-related selections that have been made in the course of the Biden administration. Do you are feeling you must undo these? Have you ever undone them?
MOYNIHAN: A variety of them have been- have been undone or made extra exact as a result of the interpretation wasn’t truly what went on. So if you happen to learn the web site, you possibly can say, oh, they’re doing this. And the truth was that is not what was going- by no means was supposed. And so we do not debank anyone for spiritual or political causes. We made the insurance policies clear so folks might see it. We welcome all of the enter from the banking regulators and others. And we’ll, we’ll have a look at anyone who, who feels we- consider me, they- folks have thought they have been closed for causes that they could not perceive. We have checked out that in all probability, you already know, as a result of clients can come to our firm and say, ‘you have closed my account, why?’ And we will inform them. However I feel persons are forgetting the explanation why a variety of this went on was reputational threat was an evaluation course of that went on, and it was actual. And, and consider me, you already know, folks would learn the paper and mentioned, you already know, Jane Smith, John Smith, you are doing enterprise with them. They did one thing fallacious. You should be a fail as an organization, and due to this fact we’ll write you up.
BRENNAN: That was in the course of the Biden administration that sort of–
MOYNIHAN: –even–
BRENNAN: –social strain you are saying–
MOYNIHAN: –20 years ago–
BRENNAN: 20 years in the past, okay–
MOYNIHAN: It has been occurring for a very long time. It simply stored build up, after which it is after which the second factor is that, that for AML and KYC points, we needed to shut accounts. And so the extent of a transaction was set in 1972 at 10,000 and you’ve got two issues, if it goes above that, you must pour it down, if it goes a number of ones near that. That hasn’t been modified since 1972. That quantity can be 80,000 at present, so what we thought was materials then–
BRENNAN: –in phrases of, like, suspicious transactions.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, and so and so. There’s a variety of overwork right here that we’re attempting to- in the event that they get these laws proper, that shall be very useful. So there’s form of the ESG aspect of it, these issues I feel a variety of us fastened to ensure they’re primarily based on threat and actual info and stuff. As a result of this was occurring far earlier than the brand new administration got here in, frankly, in states and different locations. There’s the query of getting the AML, KYC letter after which the popularity threat, which to the credit score of the present federal bankers, they’ve taken that off the desk.
BRENNAN: as a result of there actually aren’t that many factors of settlement nowadays between Wall Road and the White Home. However this difficulty the president himself actually dug into and he mentioned that Financial institution of America declined to open new accounts for him and his household after his first time period in workplace. Do you suppose you have patched issues up? I imply, it’s- are you aware what he is speaking about?
MOYNIHAN: We- I would not discuss consumer relationships with anyone, however we–
BRENNAN: He mentioned it on tv, about you.
MOYNIHAN: I do know that. Individuals- if I had a nickel for every thing everyone mentioned about me on tv it- you already know, I might be wealthy. So on the finish of day, we financial institution everyone. We now have 125,000 spiritual organizations. We now have 70 million shoppers. We now have tens of thou- we’ve got the most important small enterprise lender within the nation interval and cease. You recognize? And so, you already know, the concept that we toss folks out, it is, it is simply not true. So I will not get into a person buyer and their, and their factors of view. However look, a few of these insurance policies, we have been pushed to locations that we have been in a position to carry again to the middle and America ought to be ok with that.
BRENNAN: And also you suppose the issues are copacetic now. You set this behind you with the White Home?
MOYNIHAN: Sure.
BRENNAN: Okay, I am getting a wrap over right here on time. So thanks for making time for us.
MOYNIHAN: Glad Holidays, thanks.
BRENNAN: Glad Holidays to you.
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